Αν και ήταν στο site των αντιμπρεξιτάκηδων την αναφέρω σαν "αβγό" χάριν συντομίας.
Me
Jesus was crucified because he was against the zealots. He wanted a democratic Rome.
αβγό
Jesus wanted a democratic Rome? I must have missed that (I'm not an expert).
Me
Why then the zealots hated him ? And he was certainly not in favour of a Rome under Calligula.
αβγό
As I said, I'm not an expert. Can you cite a passage where Jesus is reported to support democracy in Rome. All I know is the "render to Caesar" quote, which is about Judea's foreign occupation by Rome, not Rome's "democracy".
σ.σ. εδώ έχει και like καρδούλα απο φιλενάδα της
Me
There is no writen evidence but it's evident. The Roman idolatres persecuted the Christians and the Jewish zealots did the same. So Jesus wanted the Roman empire to stay in place but become civilized.
Some theorists also maintain that Jesus decided to appear on earth only when a large empire was ruling the world so he could spread his message.
αβγό
"There is no writen (sic) evidence but it's evident"! Maybe you could re-think that statement. I'm not disputing Jesus opposition to Roman occupation, but that isn't the same thing as wanting the democratisation of Judea's oppressors. Now, do you have evidence of Jesus saying that He wanted such democratisation of Rome? It's your assertion; can you support it?
Me
It's what the bible says. He did not want to free Judea either because he thought it was futile or because he did not want to teach just the Jews or because of both reasons.
αβγό
OK. If you can quote chapter and verse where Jesus says that He wanted Rome to be democratised (in so many words), I'll accept your assertion. Can you also cite chapter and verse where He said that He didn't want Judea to be free of Roman occupation? Because I have seen a LOT of people claiming that Jesus supported this and hated this that and the other, but rarely any quotation.
Me
I never said there is such writen material. Not during Christ's time at any rate.
But it's evidently what happened. The message was "love thy neighbour" not "make slave of thy neighbour". Therefore by elementary reasoning if Christ's message is followed all the nations will live in peace and respect one another and that rules out mean dictatorial rule.
The Jewish zealots who were the equivalent of today's communist party did n't like it. The Romans did n't like it either soon as they realised christianity was not a small local affair but was spreading everywhere.
αβγό
So you have no evidence that Jesus said that He wanted Rome to democratise. You have no evidence that Jesus did NOT want Judea to be free. Why didn't you just admit that, so that we know that it is just your unsupported opinion? The rest of your reply is just the politics of other people, not Jesus.
Me
It's not unsupported.
αβγό
You haven't quoted anything, so you haven't supported your claim! If you can cite the chapter and verse where Jesus says that He wanted Rome to be democratised, that will do for me. Ditto the freeing of Judea.
Me
Maybe you belong to some heresy if you say these things.
αβγό
"Heresy"? Is this the 16th century?! I'm not making any claims about Jesus; you are! I asked you to provide evidence to support your claim. So far, you have failed to do so. Therefore, your claim is merely an unsupported opinion. That's fine, but it doesn't make a persuasive argument. I could claim that the moon is made of cheese, but unless one of the Apollo astronauts came back with a piece of Stilton, you would be entitled to be sceptical!
Me
No it's not the 16th century but heresy does exist.
I am only making a logical deduction. I never said that Christ or the apostles have writen something of this nature. In any case it's impossible to expect the apostles to have said things using 19th-20th century words and phrases.
But I am sceptical too.
First of all everyone admits that Christ taught us to do good things. Even a communist atheist admits so far. Second the rulers of the period -Assurbanibal, Teglatfalassar and co- were not such nice guys is also true.
But after Christianity became a dominant religion ? We see wars everywhere. Putin, the iron clad knights, world war III, the works.
Let's also put it another way.
Today there is an element of progress.
If you and I we go to Africa we won't be eaten. The locals will treat us with crocodile risotto, they will take us to see the waterfalls and we 're going to have a great time.
So ? So if we had stuck with the ancient deities, Osiris, Ra, Nefertite, would n't we have reached the same moderate let's call it level of progress ? Maybe.
Against this may be that all of the world's progressive ideologies are the byproduct of christianity. Certainly they don't come from Hirohito or Mao Tse Tung.
But the scepticism quite rightly remains.
αβγό
I didn't engage with you to get a theological treatise. I just questioned your claim. We aren't getting anywhere. Goodbye.
